Curse

Jk)Phoenix · Dec 07, 2009, 10:25 AM // 10:25

wtf is this topic... i assume the thread maker is referrring to the use of MoP in the Manly spike isn't it?

well let me say, go there and try without mop, the real overpowered skill, if there is, is 100b, not MoP... idk why ppl LOVE nerf... i say BOOOST others to make more choice, no nerf everything!

ps: useless, troll thread. close.

Improvavel · Dec 07, 2009, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The question is - is it too much of a hit in the hands of a skilled player? Is the reward too big?

Even if the player uses MoP on the correct target, then the other party members need to focus on that target.

If the MoP player targets the wrong target (or the target flee, the mob spreads) it is down for 20 seconds.

Sure, with AP and/or consumables it won't be down for 20 seconds, but that isn't the skill problem - those are problems related to things that ignore game mechanics.

Other skills like death blossom, whirlwind attack, crude swing, etc, will also deal massive damage in the same circumstances while working against a solo target.

upier · Dec 07, 2009, 02:30 PM // 14:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Even if the player uses MoP on the correct target, then the other party members need to focus on that target.

If the MoP player targets the wrong target (or the target flee, the mob spreads) it is down for 20 seconds.

Sure, with AP and/or consumables it won't be down for 20 seconds, but that isn't the skill problem - those are problems related to things that ignore game mechanics.

So that would mean if you fail at using a skill, that skill can not be overpowered?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Other skills like death blossom, whirlwind attack, crude swing, etc, will also deal massive damage in the same circumstances while working against a solo target.

This is DB:

The problem is that MoP turns a minion attack into Death Blossom.
It turns a spear attack into DB.
And when using DB - it does that on top of DB. Twice actually.
All without the need for melee range, without the need to actually max out DM, without the need for a chain.

If the AI stays on the level of stupidity we see now, then MoP is one of those things that isn't acceptable.

Improvavel · Dec 07, 2009, 02:50 PM // 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So that would mean if you fail at using a skill, that skill can not be overpowered?

If the AI stays on the level of stupidity we see now, then MoP is one of those things that isn't acceptable.

Basically you are just saying AI sucks and their builds suck.

So by making a MOB take 2 minutes to die opposed to 30 seconds will improve the game in what manner?

Slower game is a better game?

EDIT:

Lets look at (old) CoP - you cast a mesmer hex, AoE preferably, and then all your guys with CoP can overload the enemy with AoE damage (in the area AoE btw).

Now MoP - you cast a necromancer hex. Then you need to deal physical damage (that means attacks).

How do you counter CoP?

You have hex removal, but removing AoE mesmer hexes isn't as easy as removing a single hex. You can interrupt CoP, but CoP is quite hard to interrupt and it is a interrupt itself.

How do you counter MoP?

Well, you can interrupt MoP, but lets forget that one.

You can remove MoP - it is a single hex after all.

You can blind/hex attackers or cast blocking skills on the target of MoP (or simply cast AoE blocking skills like wards/aegis).

CoP has no counters - it would be overpowered even on PvP with human players trying to keep apart.

MoP has counters - it is not used on PvP at all.

Yes, AI is dumb, but give better builds/team builds to AI, and MoP becomes a lot tamer.

And by the way, how do you want to nerf it? 3-4 targets max? So, you nerf like raptor farm and 2-3 more places?

The Drunkard · Dec 07, 2009, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

So that would mean if you fail at using a skill, that skill can not be overpowered?

This is DB:

Is that with or without splinter wep? Your Pic is a little misleading.

If it is, then splinter is accounting for about half of the damage there, not just mop doing all of it.

Xenomortis · Dec 07, 2009, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Is that with or without splinter wep? Your Pic is a little misleading.

If it is, then splinter is accounting for about half of the damage there, not just mop doing all of it.

DB accounts for all the 43s, Splinter for all the 47s.
You can't see the damage from MoP if it's there.
The 2 80+ hits are the damage done from DB attacks to the target. Not sure about the 30ish hit, auto-attack maybe?

Test Me · Dec 07, 2009, 09:34 PM // 21:34

"I got bored... what skill can I QQ next about?" - thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

What are the realistic chances of them fixing the core issue?

Some sad argumentation you've got.

Balance does not mean turning everything into: "skill that does 1 damage. And all skills ever will do 1 damage cause... we have the most balanced game eva!"

You guys really seem to drive everything in that direction. "1 damage for the win". I thought GW was ruined by the stupid nerfs ANet came up with and horrible maintenance. But now since I follow this forum I think it's you the QQ-ers that are to blame. Always asking for nerfing things that are perfectly fine finding non-problems every day... The only fault ANet has is having listened to your QQ-ing assuming "you are the community" when you're just a bunch of people crying loud representing nothing of the community at large... but with big egos thinking "you know it all".

The more nerf this and that I see the more I get to believe this forum is what needs nerfing... or even better: close it down. Nothing good came of it so far; or I haven't really seen it.

Rushin Roulette · Dec 08, 2009, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

This is DB:

Less than half that damage is from MoP, You have Splinter weapon and DB up at the same time, Im guessing only the 43 or the 47 damages are actually pure MoP, the rest can be ignored as having nothing to do with MoP and also therefore not relevant to this topic.

jayce · Dec 08, 2009, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Actually, you can't tell how much damage is done at all from Mark Of Pain in that screenshot because the player doesn't even have it equipped. The only thing I gathered from this thread is how all skills that combine well with others should be nerfed. If that is the case, then anything introduced to the game after Mark Of Pain should be first on the chopping block. Get real people. The skill has been virtually untouched since GW first went live. Direct your frustration to the AI, not the skill. If only 10% of you people complained about the stupidity of the AI, then maybe the AI would receive a much needed buff.

Jayce Of Underworld

upier · Dec 08, 2009, 10:36 AM // 10:36

As Jayce said, the build in the picture doesn't even have MoP.
It's a simple SW+DB (as I said).
The reason why I posted it was because it shows the principle under which MoP functions. When you have foes balled up, this is the kind of damage you can be achieving with MoP also.
The difference?
The SW+DB combo requires an assassin pulling off his chain. It requires the said assassin to max out his DM. It requires a ritualist with maxed out Channeling to put Splinter on said assassin.
And when it comes to MoP - you can get a caster to throw a spear, with 0 SM, at the MoPed target and cause this kind of damage. You can get a minion to do the same. And the simple fact that you know how to equip a physical weapon and can hurl it at the called target does not justify that kind of damage.

One thing is synergy.
And the other thing is just mental, out of control damage. And while DB is certainly very close to being in this category (and it probably is due to how spammable it is), MoP most definitely is.

Tenebrae · Dec 08, 2009, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayce

Actually, you can't tell how much damage is done at all from Mark Of Pain in that screenshot because the player doesn't even have it equipped. The only thing I gathered from this thread is how all skills that combine well with others should be nerfed. If that is the case, then anything introduced to the game after Mark Of Pain should be first on the chopping block. Get real people. The skill has been virtually untouched since GW first went live. Direct your frustration to the AI, not the skill. If only 10% of you people complained about the stupidity of the AI, then maybe the AI would receive a much needed buff.

You can say that about 10000 times and still ppl wont get it , sometimes is better to leave and see ants fight each other.

Reverend Dr · Dec 08, 2009, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by jayce

Direct your frustration to the AI, not the skill.

But didn't you see upier already talk about this, clearly Anet is not going to ever address the AI issues. So the best we can hope for is an unsatisfactory band-aid fix every month. No we should be embracing those band-aid fixes that leave everyone displeased. The people that wanted the nerf are displeased because immediately another AI exploiting build takes its place; the people that used the skill are displeased because only the high efficiency build they have been using is changed, while other just as efficient builds remain.

You just don't understand man. You should be embracing this change. If you don't then you are the same as those people that have argued against every other change that has ever been made in the history of guild wars. Did you know that arguing against this kind of logic causes world hunger? That's how bad of a person you are.

upier · Dec 08, 2009, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

But didn't you see upier already talk about this, clearly Anet is not going to ever address the AI issues. So the best we can hope for is an unsatisfactory band-aid fix every month. No we should be embracing those band-aid fixes that leave everyone displeased. The people that wanted the nerf are displeased because immediately another AI exploiting build takes its place; the people that used the skill are displeased because only the high efficiency build they have been using is changed, while other just as efficient builds remain.

You just don't understand man. You should be embracing this change. If you don't then you are the same as those people that have argued against every other change that has ever been made in the history of guild wars. Did you know that arguing against this kind of logic causes world hunger? That's how bad of a person you are.

The change to Smiter's Boon was a bandage.
Based on your argument, the game would be more balanced if SB was potentially left in the game in it's previous form?

Reverend Dr · Dec 08, 2009, 11:07 PM // 23:07

In the case of MoP the problem is AI, which you want to ignore.

In the case of smiter's boon the problem was a mechanism that just should not be in the game (smite being able to redbar).

One is a PvE problem which is a drop in the bucket compared to other PvE problems.

The other was a PvP problem which itself created an unfun meta.

Still none of this explains why a band-aid fix that will satisfy neither side should be acceptable.

upier · Dec 09, 2009, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

In the case of MoP the problem is AI, which you want to ignore.

The problem of this thread is that there is a number of people here who actually refuse to accept that the effect of MoP (= the amount of damage dealt) in the current game is problematic.

Does that justify ANY KIND of a change?
It would if the name of the PvE game was balance.
It is not.

So IF the name of the game was balance, then changing the AI is the superior solution. Because I believe that that solution is in NO WAY a realistic one, that would mean that IF we strived for a balanced game, a band-aid solution would need to be considered.
But as I said, the name of the game isn't balance so this is pretty irrelevant.
But this in no way changes the fact that the effects of MoP are still problematic.

Improvavel · Dec 09, 2009, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The problem of this thread is that there is a number of people here who actually refuse to accept that the effect of MoP (= the amount of damage dealt) in the current game is problematic.

Does that justify ANY KIND of a change?
It would if the name of the PvE game was balance.
It is not.

So IF the name of the game was balance, then changing the AI is the superior solution. Because I believe that that solution is in NO WAY a realistic one, that would mean that IF we strived for a balanced game, a band-aid solution would need to be considered.
But as I said, the name of the game isn't balance so this is pretty irrelevant.
But this in no way changes the fact that the effects of MoP are still problematic.

MoP is 1 hex. There are plenty strong hex removals out there.

Since the MoBs are stupid and can't remove hexes/their builds are bad and can't remove hexes, lets get ride of all hexes in game.

Then the mobs can't remove enchantments either, so lets remove all enchantments.

The mobs can't spread - lets remove all AoE attacks and all AoE spells and all snares for good measure.

The mobs are bad at removing conditions - lets remove all conditions from game.

A skill that is balanced by the fact it is single target hex, so easy to remove, easy to counter by the target or the team target as they only need to not be in adjacent range and because it has a 20s recharge.

By your logic, any skill that takes advantage of adjacent range is overpowered because the AI can't really deal with it.

As we can see, MoP is useless when the AI is better - look at PvP where it never made an impact.

People keep thinking PvE has to require the same amount of skill as PvP - it wont happen!

Some of the game skills were clearly designed to take advantage of a DUMB AI, or do you think skills like Gladiators Defense, Spiteful Spirit and Endure Pain were created to be used against humans?

People keep talking about balance in PvE - balance in PvE is balance between professions it isn't between players and MoBs. Players win, mobs die, players pickup rewards - but what they mean is "restricted group of players can accomplish X and noone else can". If that happened they would call PvE balanced.

I guess the AI isn't so dumb because it took like 4 years for people to pick up the power of MoP or is it only because there are spears for casters? Bows worked as fine before.

Test Me · Dec 09, 2009, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

People keep talking about balance in PvE - balance in PvE is balance between professions it isn't between players and MoBs. Players win, mobs die, players pickup rewards - but what they mean is "restricted group of players can accomplish X and noone else can". If that happened they would call PvE balanced.

/claps

Excellent post. Exactly my opinion as well. Mobs are there to die for loot (not win). All these posts to nerf this and that are explained exactly by some players' "elite" ego as you said (="promote skillful play" exclusive crap only for GW rocket scientists). When that has nothing to do with balance.

As you say, MoP could be called unbalanced only when I would stay in ToA with my ele unable to find a pug cause everybody wants only necros with MoP in their party (like it used to be with CoP). But hey... that's not at all the case! Actually MoP would be a really bad choice for UW. Go figure.

MoP is one of the good skills in GW. The fact that the majority of GW skills are junk doesn't mean MoP should be turned to junk as well (reducing the already weak number of good skill choices), rather the opposite maybe other skills need to be buffed?

Cuilan · Dec 09, 2009, 09:55 PM // 21:55

Then lets buff all damage skills to do thousands per cast with some fake drawback?

Tenebrae · Dec 09, 2009, 10:06 PM // 22:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Then lets buff all damage skills to do thousands per cast with some fake drawback?

What the heck ? when ppl read this thread though you were joking but now its seems you have gone out of your mind. What has any damage skills to do with a hex that only triggers with phys damage and damages adjacent foes ?.

Improvavel · Dec 10, 2009, 03:55 AM // 03:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

Then lets buff all damage skills to do thousands per cast with some fake drawback?

Fake drawback?

MoP takes some 14 triggers to kill a 600 health target and 11 to kill a 480 target and the MOb just has to remove a single hex or not stay in adjacent range.

Sure, the manly spikes team simple ignore that shit, but its a collection of overpowered builds/skills.

The rest is just generic AI incompetence and stupid MOB builds design.

AI in PvE simply can't handle hexes, conditions and enchantments. It just can't.

You put some dude in front or in some geographic corner, put some enchantments on him and it's set.

To nerf that situation without AI improvements you just will have to remove every single skill that can hit multiple targets.

It can take 10 hours instead of 1 minute, but in the end, other than the ability to stay alive/having a good connection, the skill or lack of it is the same.

Edit: And by the way I would gladly increase the damage of spells (especially for HM) as long as non-interactive skills and/or skills that don't involve resource thinking get the nerf bat.